Keto Resources

Staying Fit on Keto, Vegan vs. Carnivore, & Cutting Out Caffeine · #127 ft. Thomas DeLauer

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[Music] 100% with you on exotic intents being a fourth macronutrient cos fat is not the same as ketones and like especially like when now we see science that skeletal muscle tissue has the ability to use free fatty acids not even ketones in highly conditioned fat adapted people so it just goes to show that some cells will preferentially use free fatty acids and some will use ketones which leads us to honestly believe that they're not equal they're not one in the same so don't look at fats as ketones like they are different right and I think we'll start to see more evidence later on that's just like there's probably different sub bodies of ketones to be couple with us but then obviously we know PHP you see two acetate a stem whatever but I'm sure it's gonna go further than that welcome to the HB MN podcast your resource for evidence-based nutritional strategies cognitive performance and fitness science thank you for joining us Thomas allow our really great to have you on the HP MN podcast now stoked to be here man yeah and of course you're hosting in your headquarters here down in Los Angeles let's describe the setting a little bit for folks for a listening you have the infamous kitchen set up in the studio back there and you also have in-house gym or in office gym folks probably see all your you know multiple times a week updates on yourself experiments talking about low carb high fat diets good drink diets but sometimes your own personal story gets lost and that makes can you step back and do a quick overview for your personal journey for folks that don't know that it's been a wild ride so I mean I'll give a little bit of context first and then kind of give the whole background but you know I was I've been doing the ketogenic diet for sure since 2010 so keith has been a big part of my life for a very long time and it really came into my life a lot more so with a call to action because I needed to lose a lot of weight and I needed to get healthy backing up even further I was an athlete when I was in high school I was an all-state rugby player I was an all-state track ster I ran cross-country I was pretty athletic and it wasn't until my late teens when I started kind of damaging my knees from so much running that I started doing a little bit of weightlifting and I became much less active I was weight training but I wasn't running I went runner that could go out and you know literally I ran my first marathon when I was just before my 12th birthday you know and I could go out and I can eat seven or eight thousand calories and it wouldn't be an issue because I was burning it and then I go from you know that to having injuries and not being able to workout nearly as much so I take up way click weightlifting so I can do something but I mean the calories that I was consuming with endurance work is like that's a whole different world so of course you know I started to pile on weight and it started the pile on pretty quick then I got into the health care world I was an executive recruiter and a health care recruiter or physician recruiter so pretty high-stress job especially when you're young I mean not quite frankly it was a commission only job and you know you're really chasing the almighty dollar and money was pretty good I started making good money and started chasing money so for me it was more about okay well how do I just make the next chunk of change versus how do I get the next workout in and I was still eating like I was an athlete so you can do the math high-stress job sedentary and then eating like I was still an athlete obviously it posed a big issue so you here and a half later Here I am sitting 280 pounds and you know stress is just compounding at that point in time I picked up a roll with an ancillary lab services company so what that meant is we provided basically like celebrate cortisol testing and other ancillary lab services to predominantly fee-for-service doctors what that means is that we were providing the ability from physicians to test patients blood work without having to bill insurance they were able to do this in a fee-for-service model which at that point in time was was a really big thing fee-for-service was just getting popular so it was stressful because we were trying to teach people that world I'm freezin I'm saying all this is because this gives context as to how I have a little bit of some medical knowledge and how I understand the human body because when you're working in that capacity and you're dealing with physicians all day long and you're also dealing with their patient population you have to learn how the body works otherwise you don't make money and I just decided that I really liked it I really enjoyed what I was doing and I enjoyed how the human body works especially because I was a former athlete except one glaring problem I was extremely overweight passionate about the human body it was kind of hard for me to be like hey you know you should buy this product and you should use this in your practice and help your patients help them become healthy you know excuse me let me eat some tater tots like just want to be him okay yeah it wasn't wasn't working plus I mean the big thing was is you know you're a beautiful wife that I hadn't been with since high school and I started feeling I'm just like she deserves better than this like this is crazy like I'm just like not taking care of myself so that's how I turned it the ketogenic diet and it was me turning to the ketogenic diet simply because the physicians that I was working with were actually ones that turned me on to it I was fortunate enough to be in the right world where the doctors that I work was working with at that point in time were proponents of the ketogenic diet I mean I was a sponge I was ready to take in whatever someone would throw them because I would have done anything to lose weight at that point in time and I mean it's just count my lucky stars that I was with the right people at the right time that turned me on to keto and it was all about Thomas like it's all about inflammation that's what they're tell me like it's just you know if you can control the inflammation and you can you can lose weight in your body your chant everything will turn around you know and that's where it all began intermittent fasting keto all way before it was ever popular yeah I mean listen whine back the clock I mean that's nine years ago and I think I remember even three years ago when you just type in ketones the first result on Google was ketones are a toxic byproduct of being and diabetic ketoacidosis but that was like three to three years ago so nine years ago that must have been fairly alternative I mean at that time I'm sure the only clinical legitimate use case for a kitchen guy was for drug-resistant epilepsy probably so I'm curious to get your thought process at the time when you get the dogma of a balanced Western diet hybrid carbs have you know most of your diet of the FDA food pyramid is from carbs how would you go from okay let's kind of invert that table was that scary was it what you have nothing to lose yeah did you research it yourself I mean how did you even research it because I've not that much on my literature at the time yeah I mean I was definitely a big research nerd so I did what I could you know it's interesting I had always been a little bit an unconventional person I mean I ran like I said I ran my first marathon just before my 12th birthday I've always did things that took you know the beat of a different drum yeah so I was not afraid to say okay this sounds like I had no biases one way or the other it was like anything was better than I knew Pizza tater tots and fast food wasn't really gonna do the trick that wouldn't work right so I was open to it it wasn't just because they were doctors there's just so happen to be the people that explained it to me the best and they explained inflammation in a way that really made sense and it was like by the way one of the best ways to modulate inflammation is through you know what's called a ketogenic diet and the only things that I could find online for the keto diet we're on like bodybuilding forums they had talked about you know using it as a way to cut body fat before a competition but don't you dare do it for longer than a period of time because you're gonna waste away and there's a bunch of muscle you know I had a decent amount of muscle on me already so I was like okay well you know if I lose some muscle I lose some muscle it's not a big deal I wasn't too worried about it I was so overweight I just didn't really care yeah and it was very unconventional for those doctors too and it's important to know if that most of these doctors that we were working with they were working with concierge medicine so they were working with patients that were paying them cash to be their retained doctors got it now this is a spoke audience exactly so it's like if you have a typical patient population a doctor is going to have them go whatever route they need to go so that the doctor gets the proper reimbursement I see at the time icd-9 starting to change over to what's called icd-10 classification coding and it was like if they were working with a normal patient population that was going through the Rian's you know the reimbursement continuum that's typical insurance standard of care then they probably never would ever prescribe a diet like this right because it's just there would be no icd-9 or icd-10 code to actually validate it or get paid for it right so because these these patients were working with these doctors in this capacity if the patients weren't getting a positive outcome from whatever these doctors are ordering the patients would fireman we're talking affluent patients that would pay these doctors ten grand a month to have them on retainer and if they weren't getting results like there's the door doctor you're not doing your job so these doctors actually did care for the results of their patients would get so I really did take to heart what they were teaching me and they're the ones that you know gave me my first like subscription to what was called later on called up the date which was like a way for me to get like just research journals they like gave me a subscription to it they like this is what we use I you know you can check out all these journals check out all this stuff right and I just became obsessed and it was at that point where I literally just like dove into books as much research as I could to try to figure out okay what am I doing with my body and how do I get excited about it because one thing I knew about myself is that if I got excited about something I would stick with it and I will just continue to do it and I'm sure that getting access to the doctors you can probably start seeing some the lab results as well in terms of looking at people's blood glucose their lipids and getting some sense that okay this might have seen kind of alternative from standard of care but the results were really I'm sure you were seeing some of these patients on a kacheng diet working and then seeing that on yourself so we were pretty excluded from seeing that stuff but I mean I had to trust these doctors that were working with again I mean these were patients that were literally paying you $10,000 a month retainer and that concierge medicine is much bigger now and much more affordable than it was you know eight nine years ago like back then it was it was before the Affordable Care Act had really come into place so like after that but I'm not going political at all I'm just saying as a standard of reference for what happened if the medical community is when that went into place a lot of physicians had a hard time keeping their businesses and practiced anymore because it was like it was it changed the dynamic their patient load got really large alyssum so because their patient volume went up they weren't able to provide a good standard of care so they were the good ones either became concierge doctors and built a business for themselves where they worked on a cash basis or they became hospital as some went to work for a hospital system and the ones that go to work for a hospital system end up just kind of they just kind of end up going into the into the system and abyss where they just patients through call it McDonald's healthcare you know it's like and then when you look at the ones at that point in time that knew how to work with patients they built their own businesses out of it so I had to really take their faith you know their their word for it and have some faith that they knew what they were doing because hey like their patients are getting results the interesting I kid about your journey from okay you are kind of out of shape and a big dude and not necessarily healthy and you get exposed to the ketogenic diet and then over the last nine years you've built a huge presence in a machine around educating and helping a lot of people what was that journey like what was that a dream that you had as a kid going up like how did you even stumble upon this path no I never wanted to be even remotely famous I mean I'm such an introvert man like I'm so there the reason I would say like there's a reason that I enjoy being on camera it's because I get to talk to my my intimate film crew and that's it I just I I get to help a lot of people without having to actually be an extrovert you know it's like we have this extrovert ideal growing up where it's like we're supposed to we're supposed to be the loud one in the room we're supposed to be the one that's always you know standing up on the soapbox and explaining things it's like wow like I get so many good ideas that I thought were coming into my head but I just was never able to just have the confidence or maybe it wasn't confidence as I've gotten older I realized that wasn't confidence I was just had no desire to be the one that's like loud you know and like I found a way to be able to like thanks to social media and thanks to technology be able to way you know not only to spread the word but also actually to overcome some of my own insecurities with like my own voice right like I now people will think that's stupid people think I don't want to say that you know what that doctors saying actually makes a lot of sense I think I could articulate a little bit better but not probably sounds stupid you know it's like you know it's given me the crutch to be able to get over that so the journey has been wild because it went from losing weight getting in decent shape seeing like hey like I actually have a decent body under this like maybe like all that work I did in high school actually kind of paid off you know telling my wife I'm gonna go ahead and see if I can get on a magazine cover like I think I have enough business acumen that I can reach out to the right people and make it happen plus I think I looked so I was like okay watch you know in a year I think I'm gonna be on the cover of a magazine and 11 months later boom you know so it's you know I had my first magazine cover which was muscle and performance magazine at that point in time so there was a period of time there where like there wasn't any Derek's a monetization or any like building of an actual brand that would make money it was just more about like perfecting myself I'm like I actually left that job I left you know the ancillary lab services company they got acquired by a private equity fund and I left at that point in time and I was like okay it's time to find something new I actually knew I didn't want to be in healthcare anymore because I was kind of sick of it I was such a black tie environment and I'm not like a black tie kind of person yeah like I I spent so much of my life suiting and booting it in the healthcare world it's the last thing I want to do I wanted to be a flip-flop CEO you know and I so like I had this period of time waiting pump up I think yeah but I'm in California so I had to kind of figure out okay well what am I gonna do so this period of time where you know I did some magazine shoots and I ended up getting some pretty good mainstream media exposure because of those magazines and then when I started doing interviews and podcasts because of that people were like wait a minute like you actually understand the human body like this is cool we work with a lot of fitness people and they never really explain things in a medical way that you explain things and it was over time over a period of a couple months that I realized I this is my gift this is actually what I'm good at and quite frankly it's what made me good at what I did in medical device sales and ultimately in being in you know ancillary lab services world like I had to be able to explain the human body and if people didn't understand it of course they wouldn't buy especially doctors you got to talk to doctor level and you gotta help them understand their patients and it's like wow no wonder I was good at that I think I have an ability to do that and I recognized that so I got that you know boat of confidence that I needed there and that's when I started the channel so it's kind of that way I was like okay well let's just go for it and I think I was also at a nice point in time when you know social media algorithms were not as crazy as they are now like I unfortunately think it's very difficult for someone to build a brand now like some personal brand it's very difficult for someone to become an influencer or start a brand now because the algorithms are largely not in their favor you know it's it's tough so I was at a point where if you had good content it would get served people would see it and I was just like I'm just going to create a lot of content and so one of the biggest things that I did is invest in building a good team early on I built a big team I hired a bunch of videographers a bunch of editors and I made them my family and I made sure that they were on board with what my mission was and I'm like we're going to create just more content than anyone's ever seen and we're just going to go at it and I just became the ultimate research nerd and just dove into as much as I possibly could then I started learning okay well how do I know levers just a little bit more and actually be able to drive you know some revenue with it so I started creating some ebooks and learned Facebook traffic and learned all that world and you know that was able to me get me to run paid traffic so I could get more visibility while seeing at least just enough return on investment to at least cover my costs so I could continue to scale up and get my brand out there so it was a little bit of you know paid advertising guerilla marketing and the first part so I mean I took a lot like my wife and I we're looking over like okay Mike that's like honey we've got we got three months to make this work or we're gonna be living with mom and dad like like we like here's what we got like we're gonna put it into Facebook and we're gonna put it into pumping up the brand then we can unfortunately it was like the grace of whatever you want to call it like Kido just started to be popular then and it was like I was talking about it from a different angle and it was just like boom and it's like all right we don't have to live with mom and dad and to that I mean timing and in some balls right like I had some conviction there no risk no reward cuz I was I was out of it I mean I saw my results with it and I've even talked about my wife story I ought to save that for another day with my wife you know you know autoimmune diseases lyme disease like she was really sick and like the keto diet saved her i mean so it was like I was I owed it to her and I had lost a lot of weight with it had a lot of success with it felt great it saved our marriage something because like she was so depressed and sick and I was overweight and sick and depressed and it was just like like so people will give me crap sometimes about the keto diet and say whatever they want to and I'm just have to look at them and say like you have no idea but you know you try on your shoes for a little bit yeah exactly like you can say whatever you want about the keto diet but what it did for my family and what it did for my wife and what it did for like keeping this together like you have no idea so insult me all you want but I go home at night knowing that like this changed my life and it's changing other people's lives yeah and I think what you touch upon when when you first initially started researching the he–oh diet was like very much in the bodybuilding almost like the hardcore optimizing world and I think from medical literature there's some applications for therapeutic use and obviously today it's starting to enter and creep into just mainstream this is maybe what people should be considering as a standard diet right you have Kim Kardashian's the world talking about the kids tank diet I'm curious from your vantage point as we've seen that arc and history what elements of like the hardcore bodybuilding world which arguably is pretty cutting edge in terms of like biohacking and experimentation what did you see come from that world and what did you see come from the therapeutic world from use as an epilepsy its diet or use from you know diabetes or else you know some of the metabolic syndrome controlled diet did you get inspired by both sides of the world or what did your inspiration come from I found that by combining both reasonings like from the bodybuilding world and in the medical world I was like a look this was like ah like this is the recipe to make a soup like a superhuman this is like okay you're telling me that like I can get ripped but then like these guys in the bodybuilding world at that time were couldn't care less about the cognitive affective right guys you could have asked them to eat anything if it made it rips they'd do it right but so I'm like okay well that's fascinating and you're looking forums and it's all that kind of pseudoscience and quite frankly there's nothing really wrong with pseudoscience if it's not used in like ill fashion regular pseudoscience is just kind of like science this just hasn't been put in a paper yet so there can be some like it depends on how you look at it so that some of this stuff was like okay this is people talking about like what their use was and in my opinion not consider that pseudoscience right like but it's then there's the medical journals are talking about it from the side of okay here's what it's done for therapeutic effects there are some you know measurements in terms of ketones in the brain and glucose in the brain and how things work there so I was definitely inspired by both you know but for me my first thought was okay I gotta get this weight off so I'm gonna look over in the cosmetic side and then it didn't take long it's a you know maybe a couple of months before I was really feeling what I would consider the therapeutic effects like joints weren't hurting as much back wasn't hurting as much things just felt a lot better and that's where I think if you look at keto sort of as a gateway drug for lack of a better term it like opens you up to this whole other world and once you're thinking clean and clear and once that brain fog has lifted then you start becoming interested in the more biohack kind of things yeah you know bodybuilders don't know their biohackers right they are right yeah like so I was never really a bodybuilder but like that community fed me a lot of what I knew about the ketogenic diet from a body composition side with the exception of they always thought that you would lose a lot of muscle if you stuck with it right I can't remember what the study wasn't particularly there was a study that was published not long after I got on to the ketogenic diet which was one of the ones that found that like you know ketones were extremely extremely you know leucine sparing so that's a catabolic right yeah very strong and technical except you know that those like oh my gosh like this is the Holy Grail like I didn't actually stay lean and then I could put myself in a caloric deficit burn body fat or I could actually put myself in a surplus and possibly build muscle and not getting a whole lot of body fat if i play my cards right right so it was really a combination of both but I mean one side of into the medical research more that was obviously the more exciting side for me the physique and the physical side of it kind of just came natural I didn't have to work really really hard at that because I didn't have these big surges in insulin that were messing me up all the time once the diet was kind of set it was just set and I could focus on the other stuff yeah I think today the caging diet ketones and general exhaustion or endogenous production I think it's like a very popular exciting news research area and I'm just curious in terms of your audience or what you're interested in are you most excited about the physical performance applications the cognitive performance applications some of their therapeutic potential the weight will lost body composition presidential and some of the I think what's personally pretty interesting the anti-aging longevity potential I mean I think just in terms of our audience I would describe them in three main buckets I would say that you have one group that are athletes they want to maximize their performance maybe at the expense of longevity more like the bodybuilding guys right they want to win that Olympic gold medal or they're in a occupation that cares about optimizing that short-term performance maybe you're in the military maybe you're first responder I would say the second big category is folks optimizing for longevity right some of the data around reducing insulin reducing glucose ketones tricking some of the longevity pathways I know just folks in our Silicon Valley Network I've really you know look at academic diet as a way to extend their health span and every third category's kind of imagines kind of your story which is okay how do i optimize my body composition I might have some medical issues that might be treatable through diet first if you there's no those kind of three canonical buckets where does your audience look like and what are you personally interested in by talking to all of them all at once so how do you how do you balance all of that it gets tough because the audience sometimes gets dictated by just what trends and what works song works out right so it's like I can put equal amounts of content surrounding all three which I'm I wouldn't say I'm equally passionate about but I'm passionate about all three right yeah but the content surrounding body composition and body fat and just overall human performance in general seems to take off more and so you have to kind of feed that a little bit I'd say I'm most excited about the longevity side that's just for me that's like metabolic efficiency metabolic flexibility and longevity just being able to change how our body sees nutrients to a make us live longer but be ultimately help us perform better too so I kind of in some ways high performance in in some ways with with that metabolic flexibility in longevity because with efficiency and if our cells are operating more efficiently then probably gonna perform better too right we're gonna perform better and operate for a longer period of time I'm not in it to you know get the most out of a workout every single day you know it's you were asking me earlier you know you're talking about work out some area in my studio I'm just kind of like I'm all about just like I just want to keep moving in and be mobile and flexible be able to be on the ground with my kiddo and you know it changes how I portray content how content goes out you know and now having a kid of my own it's like I'm all about I want to be around as long as I can I want to see him grow up I want to see his kids grow up and right I think there's a lot there with the kid I you want to be able to play with the grandkids and hopefully create grandkid too right yeah um so I think probably the folks listening are probably probably get a sense of why one with considered kidding drink diet and some of the benefits there so we won't go into the basics and you know look at what honest comments the videos already like we can get the basics there but I think what I saw was interesting is that you've been pretty experiments all with different variants of keto or a Lokar right I would say that within the community today carnivore is super interesting there's been some discussion around Oregon meat versus muscle meat and there's also discussion I know you did like a vegan keto or vegetarian keto diet as well so Kearse get your broad overview on the variance of keto and you know what are your basic like you know you've done a lot of self experimentation you've to a lot of clients and and all you know folks in your community you know what would you say are like the things that have stuck with you in terms of all these experimentation or variants yeah I would definitely say that I don't notice a big difference now between having low amounts of protein and large amounts of protein I can say like go on record and say that like I've gone extended periods of time with lower amounts of protein and extended periods of time with higher amounts of protein and I don't see within the ketogenic spectrum a whole lot of a difference either way so what's the protein load so I've gone as high as you know 2 grams per pound of body weight which is very very high and I've gone as low as you know 0.25 grams per pound of body weight and so I mean that's RDA is like point eight very low yeah so I've done really low if your training intensity is high really low obviously doesn't work nearly as much all right but I'd say you know yeah RDA is at you know at 0.8 if you're looking there like I would say you're perfectly fine there you know this is me talking right this is what I've experienced and some people will say it's the complete opposite but what I have learned is obviously gluconeogenesis being demand-driven like once you have enough ketones in your body your demand for protein isn't that high because you're so boosting sparing like you don't need a whole lot of protein coming in your diet so you can arguably get by with less protein which is exactly what I determined with the whole vegan keto challenge that I did now I developed a lot of haters in that world when I did that because I thought ahh –mess was going vegan no I was more so to prove that it could be done yeah and to prove that like hey like mainly to a lot of the vegan community that despised what I did with in the keto community I wanted to show them like guys like you can do this and you can feel quite good doing him you know I didn't lose muscle I stayed relatively strong you know my protein content was about 0.5 0.8 it was pretty low and it's mostly coming from incomplete sources so like how much well I mean incomplete protein sources sub you know it's good and you know flax and I hadn't read that so now one thing I have learned through all my research and my own self experimentation too is that the body is pretty good at pooling amino acids where it needs to pull them and ultimately creating complete proteins I need to need to be eating complete proteins that being said then I go to the other spectrum where I did a carnivore challenge where I like okay I'm gonna go carnivore and I started doing carb orders original let's do it for two weeks ended up pushing it about a month because I felt like I really need to give it the gi try and you know I felt really good I felt like recovery was was good but I felt like I felt like my body was missing some nutrients maybe I wasn't doing it long enough but I felt like I was missing a few things but my point is like overall recovery wise I didn't feel a whole lot different from vegan keto than I did over to Cara Moore style so I definitely you know made that consensus that okay protein isn't as important on a keto diet as it is otherwise where's like I've done other diets before and like if my protein was low I would feel it right you know when I was you know in high school my protein was low with that demand that I was putting on it like I would feel it I would feel lethargic I wasn't recovering I'd feel more sore that's one thing definitely learned for sure other than that you know it's there's multiple different ways to skin a cat right yeah people really are dogmatic and are very religious around their specific acts that aspects of the diet right I think we've been having a lot of kind of our focus on and it seems like the death there is some value if you have autoimmune issues and all of that I think I think there's that we need to have a discussion that's a little bit more nuanced or a queen I think again if you want to choose a very strict restricted version of keto if there's a therapeutic use for that if you you know have really intolerant of lectins or something then there might be a reason for that but I think the question for most people which don't have such strict autoimmune issues with certain types of nutrients from plants or toxins with the carnivores wave from plants can is actually more optimal to have a more balanced diet and I think that's where I'm kind of personally interested you know again like I like it doesn't matter if I'm eating like hundreds of meat or hundred percent vegetables I just want to have like the most optimal diet for health span and it sounds like you that you know you're finding that through having sources of food from all sources well one thing's for sure I mean we're not gonna live to be a million years old if we're having a dogmatic approach on anything okay I mean that's that's the way that I look at it I don't think that you know saying like I'm only gonna eat meat it's going to allow us to live forever and I don't think that being vegan is going to allow us to live forever alright do you think that it really does a come down to the individual but be it also comes down to yes to some degree a balance but what is what is that balance and when does that balance you know apply and one of the things that I felt mentally very good on a colonic carnivore diet I will say that I felt very good and I think that has to do simply with inflammation but inflammation is a root of a lot of things but is it the root of everything if we bring inflammation down too much then our body's not able to react the way that needs to react to certain things – so like where do we draw the line I mean I'm not anti carnivore by all means in fact if anything that carnivore challenge made it so that I was more receptive to it but you cannot say that you are carnivore and anti plant nutrients or plant toxins and then go and put a steak rub that has oregano and this and that on it you know I mean like you can't like if you're that's going to affect you from an immune system standpoint like you can't if you're gonna do it then you better be doing it with just salt like I mean if you wanted like clean that it's the best and like again that could be the case and I know there's some guys also don't do that yeah yeah that are very strict and they believe it you know but you can't just say if that's the way it's gonna be and I learned the hard way because when I first started saying I was gonna do carnivore I was like okay I'm gonna cook my meat some some macadamia nut oil and some avocado oil and there's a couple people that point it out and they're like that's not carnivore and it took me like it took me getting into carnivore mode to actually think that way so it was interesting because as you start becoming more receptive to that you start ah okay yeah like if I'm if this is how I'm going to eat and I need to be getting my fats from this source too so eating the fattier cuts of meat and magically yes I did I did feel better excuse me I did feel better than I did when I first started carnivore and I was eating leaner meats um adding my fats in right so it's just interesting and it just kind of brings me back full circle that like what balance for you might be totally different than balance for me know my period I think that's like a lot of my discussions go as well which is that you have a different genetic baseline how a different genetic baseline maybe our goals a little bit different and we have different glucose metabolic responses to different types of foods like we've got to be optimizing ourselves a little bit yeah and that's where it self experimentation getting educated on how to best understand these is this is really important so like what has stuck to you I mean I think in terms of all these things I mean what is like a typical diet I mean it might be kind of a silly question but I think it might be just helpful to get a sense of you know what has passed of Thomas allow are kind of like in your staple list of go-to items for you yeah I mean it has changed since – in that carnivore experiment I am much more open to animal sources of fats like by a lot a lot more yeah more so than I was before so now you know I generally you know uh soul if I have eggs for breakfast I'll cook them in some duck fat or some you know leaf large or something like that that's coming from like a really good source whereas they used to only cook with like coconut oil and stuff like that so now you know I'm expanding a bit more there I'm still like come from the school of thought effect keeping it moderate fat in the morning and leaner in the midday and then higher fat in the evening it's just kind of my philosophy I always called it the protein sandwich hypothesis where I feel like you have you have more leeway to eat more fats in the morning and I want to go off and attend it but this is interesting stuff so there's a BMC genomic study that found that like we have more ability to eat fat in the morning with less likelihood of that fat getting stored like dietary fat we can eat more dietary fat in the morning with less likelihood of it getting stored mainly because of one particular gene pr1 now that makes it so that your fats sensitive your your fat cells are less insulin sensitive in the morning but your muscle cells are more insulin interesting and vice-versa in the evening so if you eat a bunch of fats in the evening you're have a higher risk of those fats spilling over and going to storage than you would by flip-flopping it so so it's interesting so I tend to keep my fats moderately high in the morning and then I kind of bring them down a little bit more midday and then I bring them back up a little bit in the evening time just to get my calories up but not not real high and so that's kind of just my method so I have a lot of different ways that I'll do that no but but now it's yeah if I'll have some eggs I'll usually do something like two or three whole egg yolks in like one egg white because the egg white is most inflammatory part of the egg anyway there's just so you know that's a lot of times what breakfast will look like for me with maybe a little bit of ice and mixed into it and I don't know maybe a little bit of bok choy like I'm a big fan of bok choy because I feel like it's a yeah it's a cruciferous vegetable genic effects without a bunch of the raffinose bunch of the sugar that comes from like broccoli and cauliflower which can blow you and make it I don't last thing I want to do is eat broccoli in the morning and be distended all day so that's like kind of a go-to breakfast it's kind of the Bison egg kind of bok choy just kind of mixed into it but I've asked a lot too so a lot of times I don't have breakfast yeah you know midday like I said it's usually pretty lean so you know I might have you know some whitefish or might have you know some chicken or something if I'm gonna have white meat it's almost always mean white meat because the fatty acid profile of chicken is just not all that great right for a higher fat okay so you usually try to do some kind of fish to try to do some kind of white meat you know with lunch and then you know again some toxins with some veggies and then so I usually will have a little bit of veggies but I tend to bloat a little bit if I have veggies midday too so I don't I mean just for that sake I don't want to feel like that so I try to carefully pinpoint what I have yeah any source of fat usually gonna be like pork rinds or something that's relatively convenient for me trying to get somewhere in the ballpark of you know 40 grams of fat so it might be a little bit of like avocado Mayo maybe a little bit of pork rinds whatever and then dinner my wife's usually making something my wife's an amazing cook so she makes all kinds of different keto dishes you know so sometimes it's something fun we don't do a whole lot of dairy in our house so we do you know almost everything with coconut right so she'll make you know chicken pot pie or something with like some coconut flour some almond flour made with coconut cream to make the crust yesterday so we have some fun with it you know at this point I've been doing keto for so long like it's I could go one way or the other like I could sit there and eat just like a really bland steak it has no seasoning on it whatsoever but if my wife is enjoying the process of cooking then I'm gonna indulge it I'm have some fun with it she knows where my limits are and she knows where my lines are but I don't believe in just being completely militant about it I've been on the high-performance into the spectrum and I've been on the lifestyle into the spectrum and I like to find the balance and if I need to flip a switch because I need to go into performance mode because I need to get ready for a photo shoot and I need to do something and then I'll tell you what I'll become a little bit more of a machine and my wife probably doesn't have the most fun and you know then I will be tougher wearing it up with my my you know boring steak and a couple green beans and yeah yeah let's talk about that I think we were touching up upon a little bit where yeah I think back to the dogmatism I think there's definitely a group that's very solid you know zealous on being super super strict I think it's not clear in terms of literature that being per maketo is necessarily optimal and I think especially some of the research cream of the buck Institute showing the cyclical ketogenic diet is having similar outcomes as a permit contingent died in terms of health span for an animal study right so I think the literature is still open on what is optimal so curious the I mean something you painted some picture around that you will relax your carb restriction you know just for like overall happiness yeah versus like okay we're going to pour high-performance motor or photoshoot mode and we'll be very very strict yeah I mean is that kind of how you see it I mean I think that's what I I feel like that's like most my conversations with people that have been in the space or if been in Aikido for a long time totally you get to the body composition and get a very very fat adapted to a very long period of being straight Kido and then once you're in that fat adapted phase you can't add in you know absolutely a little bit of carbs and it's gonna like you know push up your glucose a little bit but you're so fat adapted and so insulin sensitive that you come right back down in next couple days you recover well I mean even quicker than that yeah I mean I just like yeah if you were to really go to town and have some carbs my technical days or a day but I mean quite honestly like yeah so my ketone levels are never all that high so like I think a lot of it has to do with you know you have some like efficiency right if your cells are efficient they don't the demand isn't this high yeah it's the same kind of thing with like you see with glucose right like peripheral insulin resistance like people be like why is my glucose high well because your cells aren't using all that much glucose now like your peripheral tissues aren't and that happens to fat adaptations so like my body like even if even at the end of like in a three day fast like my ketones will still be like 2.5 it's just like I just I I've been doing this for a lot longer than even a lot of people that are you know experts or influencers in the community so I've got a pretty good litmus test on what longest term heat it looks like yeah and like I keep it I just don't get that high they used to get way higher you know that used to like I used to register and even on even on the pee sticks which are largely inaccurate I used to register purple for months whereas most people when they start keto like you know they'll be registered purple on a keto stick for a couple weeks and then it goes away because I'm measuring acetoacetate and that's gonna you know that's excess ketones I was I was creating excess ketones for months you know so I know for a fact that my body at one point in time was creating a ton of ketones in my point in saying all of this is that I can have 8090 carbs in a day and still be at the same amount of ketones in my blood that I would if I wasn't in sa because I'm active me because I'm pretty heavily muscled so there's some factors there but see because I'm fat adapted I'm very fat of that yeah so when I say cyclical ketogenic diet I'm pretty like it all depends on how you look at I don't believe that doing like carb carb cycling in a weekly basis is the best thing I don't think that like going three days keto two days not three days on one day off because he never really gave your body a good chance to like thrive the distance in my opinion so I usually am more of like I'll go two months keto maybe one month off maybe two months off but even when I'm off its very low glycemic it's still pretty low carb we're talking less than mine usually like one hundred thirty hundred forty grams that's off keto from you which is dancing a fine line where it's like if I were to skip breakfast the next day I'd be back in Quito yeah that's what I feel is really really great and a lot of the people that I've talked to have kind of settled into that same world and you don't have to be yeah you don't to be a zealot just because you're trying to get people to understand your way of eating doesn't mean that you need to like live this black and white lifestyle simply because it's why you're preaching you know it's like I preach Quito but does that mean that I have to be key to all the time absolutely not it might as the like Quito is a tool in my toolbox and it's I'm indebted to Quito because what if that's what it's done for my body what it's done for my family so I owe it a lot and I want a lot of people to be able to experience what I experienced but I also want to be able to live my life in optimal way and be able to be targeted with my keto diet so that I can that's always a call it more than a cyclical I call it a targeted ketogenic diet because what is your goal what is your target yeah what are you trying to do you know I think I make sense especially with like the notion on ketone chasing right people want it's like yeah show really really big number it's like okay why do you want to do that what's the gold and I think it's also pretty interesting in in my experience with a high-performance world often times you'll want to use carb strategically before events right so this is like again what is your goal if it's for a therapeutic use case because you're diabetic or have some sort of syndrome then yes maybe be much more strict because that's a health issue but for a performance issue or longevity issue or a health Spanish you it's a little bit more nuanced yeah so just okay let's just like only eat meat for the rest of our lives yeah if you have a geo blastoma and you're trying to you know stave off a brain tumor then that's that's one thing yeah you know and I've even wondered I'm like huh one day you know if I if I got diagnosed with epilepsy and something like randomly adult onset epilepsy it would in some ways I told my wife I was like it'd be kind of relieving because then I would just have no question that I just didn't know time and there's never any like experimenting that's gonna confuse me because I go full-bore and do what I do and then I learn things get frustrating cuz I try to you know track data points and things and even when I'm lying when I'm cycling in and out of Quito it's really hard to track good data like it's just everything's all over the place hey listeners if you're enjoying this episode thus far please consider writing a review on our iTunes page it really does help increase the visibility of our podcast that's really the best way to support our work in appreciation for your review we'll hook you up with $15 of hvm n store credit we also love it when we see you guys share our episodes that you've enjoyed on your Twitter Instagram or Facebook and we often reshare those posts just tag us at our handle at hvm n now back to the show I wanted to ask you a question because I'm curious your thoughts on this is if we took for instance like five hundred years ago people here's diseases that would ravage in like you know infection I'm gonna sling people yeah like that so if we had like the intervention that we have today to be able to like fight off you know a staph infection or write things that would ordinarily kill people if we if we had all the same like advances there with medicine but we were able to apply it to what we were eating 500,000 years ago do you think people would live as long as they are today or longer I think it would be longer in my thesis there my proposition there's that it's pretty clear that I would say that there's more and more data suggesting that whole unprocessed foods are generally better than processed foods right I think the diet today of the average Americans like 50 percent process right so I think even just from a food selection 500 years ago I mean there's it wasn't processed anywhere there and then to I think they're like the sugar intake I remember just it's crazy statistic that like in 1800s the average American had like less than like a pound of sugar a year and now it's like you know 250 pounds of sugar a year right so you think the carbohydrate intake was much lower interesting argument around how much protein axis did you know the average person have because I guess in the 1500s if you're a serf you're not probably eating a lot of protein right like you're eating like the bread or the other grain but I would say that like I think probably the biggest thing is that you probably do have a much more unprocessed diet and your livelihood was much more active yeah I think that's like one thing I've been thinking a lot about where you know you and I make our livelihood through our creativity intellectual capacity right like you're not making money by lifting weights and Sarah Lee hello I may be the photoshoot stuffing you to your grave but I think mainly like the folks that you know you know our producers and your staff here I mean they're they're creating until their livelihood is intellectual yeah which is probably not optimal again from like a physical you know health outcome perspective yeah so my my thesis would be like if you're a nobleman and up in terms of having access to a lot of protein you're probably gonna be able to live longer but I think if you're if you're like a serf was just like able to only eat like barley or something maybe not I'm in the same boat as you you know and it's like the the only one that I raised question this coming from something that's a very active person yeah it's like well a car arguably lasts longer I mean it's not very apples to apples but well a car last longer if you leave it parked in the garage all the time and just turn it on every now and then just to keep the oil circulating and just to keep the batteries charged it makes me wonder like yes we were eating real ridiculously clean this was horrible for me to say because I'm a very active person I promote everyone getting active but like do you think that physical activity actually wears us out to the point where our cells actually might die or does it actually encourage there's different studies that show different things right it's just a wild I'm just I'm not even challenging what you're saying it's just an brought up is something that I've thought about like wow like and the other thing that comes up is even even alcohol I don't I don't even drink at all but I look at you know the adaptation of fasting is all about stressing the body right yes the hormetic effects so alcohol to some degree is it stressing the liver and actually making the liver stronger to some certain point so say you can make this weird argument with anything and I think my point in saying all this is like it's like yeah you can argue so many different ways this back to the you know the question you flip back to me is yes I mean I do think such I think we live definitely would live longer in the sense that less processed food and I also think people were generally like a lot more they were happier I think in a sense that it was very black-and-white if they were unhappy because if they were unhappy they were probably dying or getting attacked yeah and it was so like the the instances of just being stressed we're probably a lot less like you didn't know any differently you just were surviving you know I was just normal stress yeah and it wasn't like oh my god am I gonna eat today is or like it's more so like okay well Jimmy kill the boar like see you know it's like but I think the stress was just different where I was like you know this day and age I think it's more the stress thing like I says killin I think yeah she's definitely the most important factor actually I think you hit it on the nail I think we're talking about this a little bit earlier but I think capitalism is really good at maximizing the GDP productivity of a group but it's probably suboptimal for the happiness of individual and I think it's an interesting world where I don't know if people are happier today in modern society versus maybe us five hundred years ago when you had like your family and your tribe of a hundred people that you cared about you didn't have like a celebrity out there like making you feel jealous about them you didn't have like weird social media like getting stressed up all the time you your job is pretty stable like you didn't have like a lot of material requirements so that I think capitalism and materialism has really driven for us I think like even that baseline happiness that the reduction of cortisol probably really huge yeah this is wild I mean I think about this this is the kind of stuff that keeps me up at night that stresses me out yeah the things that stressed me out of the things that like thinking about like you know how wild it would be it's just and someone said to me is a really powerful thing we were talking about habit loops and I know we're going off a little tangent but I guess is what podcasts are about you know it was we were talking about habit loops and I was talking about phone addiction and how I noticed when I get more stressed I tend to default to a little bit of phone addiction where I'll check my email to say because you're just seeking dopamine dopamine hits boom boom and phone.this that and he said to me he's like you know I know this is an interesting thing he's like social media and everything general like when I'm deprived of social aspects or social activity or commune is when I start seeking out dopamine hits and he gave me a perfect example he's like I used to go to lunch with friends he's thinking that all these friends would get started getting busy and it started becoming less and less and then I started realizing that I had associated the dopamine hit with the social side of things but now the social aspect was going I would just go to lunch alone and I started associating that dopamine hit with food like I started establishing a food addiction I wonder how much actually comes back down to assess social creatures and really just requiring like that dopamine hit and Happiness coming from a social side of things and social media in a lot of ways takes that away hi captain yeah yeah where it's like we feel like we're getting social interaction we really do like Intel that's the harbor's we're intellectual is intellectual creatures and we're coming strongly frontal lobe where we're like oh well I'm getting my social interaction now it's like my thing yeah yeah so you're not giving the true and then I mean holy probably we can go to a whole like biofeedback world my different frequencies and energy and stuff like that like of course you're gonna pick up energy being around other people and feed or die off that energy so back to the original thing at hand is 500,000 years ago there was a sense of community that I think would really keep people alive and if that was applied with what is available today in terms of advances yeah that's why I think people yeah one of our mutual friends I won't name the name but he mentioned that he doesn't have any caffeine or any sort of stimulants and I think his thesis was that you know essentially caffeine is adenosine mimetic and then basically you up regulate amount of denison receptors which is a kind of a tiredness receptor and his whole theses are basically like okay you don't want to be operating on a bunch of denistoun receptors which but but I think that level like I'm like okay that's fine I will have more caffeine but I think the next level which is interesting kind of reminds me if the dopamine point is that what if you had so much adenosine receptors I start pushing down and down regulating serotonin dopamine receptors do you get like less happy so like I'm just curious in terms of like have you been trying to structure your life or your patterns to minimize some of these habit loops so caffeine getting off of caffeine is one of the harder things for me so I'm curious if we're on the same page totally I don't know if I think I know if you're talking about I'm not gonna name names we'll talk afterwards but so he may know he or she may know that I recently had tried cutting out Cathy North I say try because I didn't like I wasn't committed to going cold turkey I was gonna switch keep keep the green tea in the mix and try to keep it under like 50 milligrams and it just small amounts of green tea and it's been like going on three months now and I actually believe it or not I feel like my cravings are worse I feel like like I feel like I I wouldn't I think I'm more mellow and I'm less reactive that's an obvious thing okay that's like you know let's catecholamine it's like I'm maybe less than journal and I'm less genuine things like that that's okay physical performance no significant change but like seeking the dopamine hit it hasn't like I'm still seeking the dopamine hit and I'm not getting it from caffeine so now I'm like I'm like cost-benefit here like I'm like what is I I have caffeine like I'm certainly at a point now where I don't really need it like I've been off of it like so I don't feel a wake up needing a cup of coffee right but like the benefits the coffee seemed to in my opinion kind of outweigh what the negatives were but I but it's it's only been a few months and yeah the whole process of you know if you know like CBD for example suppose that does the opposite like CBD I've often thought they'd see me D changes adenosine receptors in a way where it makes it so every basically have more denison receptors right so does that mean that that's gonna make you groggy ER and make you do the opposite long right and that it's just a wild world I mean it's kind of comes back to I mean everything in moderation including moderation I guess I guess I'm a cop-out to say it but I found that like cutting out caffeine was more of a placebo effect more than anything for me I was like proud of the fact that I was cutting out caffeine yeah and the reason I did it is because I was in the process of getting my helicopter pilot's license and I was like okay well when I'm flying a helicopter I don't want to be shaky and stuff and I want to be able to be clear yeah and it did help me with that yeah I just wanted everyone every each of every one of us have a different new shaped curve for a lot of these things like exercise you mentioned right like or alcohol like there's some hormetic effect right if you're running and 100 miler every single day that's probably gonna not be optimal for a longevity but if you're not doing anything probably not optimal for lungs it would be either ands like and probably we have different set points just give our genetic and the kind of environment we were raised in right with even potentially with alcohol although I think the alcohol data that I've seen in terms of being optimal for longevity it's more of an epidemiology or associational study for us I don't think they've done experiments or it's like okay here drink a beer I don't drink a beer to see who lives longer right that hasn't been done one thing I wanted to touch upon was fasting so you've mentioned passing a couple times and my personal story of getting a taquito actually came from fasting first yeah event into the kitchen Inc that or I think of fasting as eating your own body fat or cute ranked guys essentially eggs on just fat as your primary source of calories so I think it's like very much a similar strategy ler tactics for the same metabolic strategy right just restriction on carbohydrate and shifting to fat metabolism it sounds like you started off with a ketogenic diet and then started experiment into intermittent fasting and fasting curious to hear about yeah your experiments with fasting something you've done the three day fast before my longest fast ever was a seven day fast cares you've done like really long fast yeah five days my longest I did three days like every I don't know four months or so yeah no I really like three days like I think that's a perfect sweet spot yeah recently I've become a fan of the 36-hour I love like a love of like a frequent every couple week three six hours mainly cuz and again I'm digressing but this is fun stuff it's like the element of mastery that comes with being able to guilt them in the evening time I mean times tough time you know it's like you go home I got my wife my kid they're eating dinner and I'm not you know and it's like there's an element of mastery that comes with that that I just really enjoy I think sleeping hungry is the hardest part I think totally I find myself it's like 7:30 could go to bed I mean I love fasting and fasting was implemented into my diet like only a couple of months after I started keto primarily effectively did both okay no it was honestly I was told to do intermittent fasting before keto but I was afraid it's a Cheeto a lot of people the opposite much like you like weight you probably just weren't thinking body composition the way I was or anything like that anyway but I mean a lot of people that I talk to that are looking to lose weight like fasting is a challenge for them and it's kind of it's it's scary but then a lot of a lot of people are also the opposite or they're just like it's oh it's easier for me to just not eat than it is to think about eating that bacon and eggs right you know it's so I fell into the category if I wanted to I was a phenom take my food away take my fruit away you know and then all it took was having my appetite suppressed by being on keto where I'm just like I don't even really want breakfast so I'm sure yeah so I was not really doing an intermittent fasting style I was just like two days a week doing like full they've asked you know that's like it was for me it was purely a calorie thing I've always been big on looking at calories over the course of a week versus every day and that was how I was taught that's how it made sense to me so I don't look at calories daily like I just I look at calories weekly and if I had two days a week where I wasn't eating that's a heck of a lot of calories at the end the week net-net okay so it was almost almost like he started it some almost simultaneously we have three paths namely again I think back in back from 2010 I mean this must been pretty wild I don't think people were talking about like fasting at all no it was a it wasn't like are you anorexic are you weird story of my life I mean I know you're talking to someone that was again you know a runner all through middle school and running extreme distances so I've always I was used to being the weird little runner boy hey little you know what are you doing like what are you running a marathon like you're I was always doing weird things I know and I had a very unconventional childhood I you know essentially was did an independent study from the time I was like 13 on so I worked full time to help support my family like all through high schools I had a weird upbringing I just you know I guess I'm kind of a unique snowflake in that sense that I could never so people were always saying weird things to me about that so it just didn't it just came as no surprise you know I was you know here I was like not eating and I got Thomas is just being weird Oh Thomas it's like now I'm just publicly weird Oh Thomas yeah it's not a pretty good adaptation right like I think by breaking paradigms you're just being very like your skillet you're collecting more information you know like you'd like to explore on that front of human knowledge right you need people that have low or have like a high risk tolerance to be able to be like okay I'm gonna experiment and see what works and they may be pep like pave a way forward for other people yeah totally um I think one I would say that more relatively recent introduction of Aikido space is this whole notion on exogenous ketones I think you've had some ideas and posts and videos about that curious to get your sense of exiles ketones I mean we obviously make a ketone ester we think about it as a kind of a macronutrient type of a category in addition to your fat protein carbohydrate curious to get your thoughts on exhaust ketones and then where do you see this ketogenic diet low carb kind of eating go and in the future Connor percent with you on exhaustion is contends being a fourth macronutrient cuz fat is not the same as ketones and like especially like when now we see science that skeletal muscle tissue has the ability to use free fatty acids not even ketones in highly conditioned fat adapted people so it just goes to show that some cells will preferentially use free fatty acids and some will use ketones which leads us to honestly believe that they're not equal they're not one in the same so don't look at fats as ketones like they are different right and I think we'll start to see more evidence later on that's just like there's probably different sub bodies of ketones to be couple attempts but then obviously we know PHP is co2 acetate and whatever but I'm sure it's gonna go further than that and it's different cells will use in there so one hundred percent agree I think that there's practical applications wherever you need them like predominantly the like a heightened cognitive function and heightened physical performance right that's where the research is and that's where I see the effects versus you know there's other world so you can talk about I mean we start looking at longevity that's gonna be interesting to see because I actually do think that exogenous ketones will play a part in that and ketones esters are gonna play a much stronger role in longevity than ketones salts would play in longevity you can argue that ketone salts can have some effects on performance this and that like depends on where you look ketone esters is pretty clear you know there's some pretty published stuff that's pretty straightforward with a ketone esters and performance again you can make the argument with salts but it's a little bit ambiguous longevity I think from the longevity side of things I think that's where the esters are really gonna end up playing a part but I can say because it's too early as someone that loves the idea of being dual fuel I mean I'd love to be able to go do a CrossFit style workout you'll to operate you know through the you know whatever glycogen pathway I need to when I need to or have more aerobic endurance when I need that and you know ketone esters have helped me with that but by and large like you know let your body create what it needs to create and when you need to use the pastures or when you need to use an exhaust ketones for practical application that's exactly they're there for you know hopefully we can come to a point where we can learn even more about how we can use them you know for longevity reasons a lot of work yet to be done in the space I mean even with a kid in drink diet right like this is a eating pattern that's been studied and still people are still doing new literature on how to best apply it for certain cases as well um you know one thing that in your in your office is that you have a massive wall red light infrared light here and then you talked about tracking a bunch of different stuff you know I'm Kherson yeah it sounds like you've Apple watch on yeah now what are the things that you like tracking I mean in terms of quantitative stuff what are you go to things what kind of advice is the biohacker you stuff that you're in the bus biohack side of me is just that's just a nerdy thing to keep me yet you know it keeps me motivated to be a completely honest like learning that stuff you know my go-to like red lights have been has been fun like my red light the red light there you know we talked about a little bit this like what is red light therapy what is getting it from the Sun like like how do we tell you is hard to tell but I love gaming the system and gamifying the process a little bit played around a little bit with like aura and whoop I don't like to like say like one more than the other but I tend to lean towards the loop just because or like what I lift you know and if I'm lifting barbells and stuff it kind of men yeah yeah it's uh but I like them both anything you know they're they're great guys like those guys are awesome I've talked about know all those guys so it's it just all depends on what you're doing so heart rate variability has been a big thing for me I think that's kind of a way of the future to I think we're gonna start learning just done but hey well the heart actually has the ability to be flexible just like our cells do a terrific 11 yeah so kind of the master switch so to speak can be more flexible so that's something I'm really into lately you know and then I all kinds of different things meditation I'm big into that world hard to quantify that yeah I know I'm gonna have like radio imaging just at my fingertips to see like what's working but you know I notice a pretty significant difference when I'm on with meditation game versus when I'm off yeah I mean I mean I try anything that's thrown at me isolation tanks hot sauna hot sauna yes a big one can't believe I like that yeah so hot sauna / infrared into me you know like some I'd you've likes here the red lights they have infrared too so I get that but I I love sitting in you know hot sauna I'm a big fan of dry saunas you know I think he shot proteins are an interesting world I'm curious to see what's gonna come up with you know maybe maybe there is some already and you can direct me that way but is there research surrounding the world of heat shock proteins and ketones together no one affiliate yeah because that's I mean that seems like the perfect combination anti-inflammatory yeah yeah so no so you name it I've probably tried it cold showers ice baths all that kind of stuff yeah only on fasting days just because I just try to Jack my catecholamines in my adrenaline up as much as I possibly can I have like I don't see I see I view my fasting days as like my off my my catecholamine adrenaline on days and my other days has my off days please is a really jack of everything you sure I just cell phone I sit there and I like try to create problems I mean it's awfully cold shower I mean that no I just shock my shock my body I figure I'm already doing it I feel like if anything's gonna be if it's gonna be bad it would be bad if it was chronic and like why would I want to I don't want to like constantly have these you don't want to be in that like heightened like stress state all the time like it's in fact the evidence shows that chorus all is perfectly good except like cortisol when it's high during a time of eating is when it's bad yeah so like cortisol is supposed to be elevated when you're not eating it's like kind of a natural response and sort of high in the morning and but if you're chronically stressed and your cortisol levels are elevated while you're eating that's exactly then quite literally wear them like the gimmicky marketing is actually right that's where belly fat does accumulate because we have more you know glucocorticoid receptors we have more of those receptors in our visceral fat and our abdominal fat than anywhere else and that's directly of course related with course so if your course all levels are elevated when you overeat then yes that does have a higher potential to source body fat there's no denying that so I try to be like okay why would I want to have these spikes and stress on days I'm gonna be eating somewhat more frequently I'm a little have these spikes of stress where it's just gonna pull body fat right that's my weird way of looking at yeah makes sense I mean I think it's also interesting terms of stacking right like I think it's elegant in terms of you're you're really targeting your days often in very targeted ways versus like okay I'm gonna like kind of fast and exercise and do sauna in a very staggered when I think that reminds me of a lot of the pure decision that pro athletes already do with your diet and exercise and sounds like you're doing that with kind of your bio hacks as well which is I think the first time I've kind of heard about that in terms of yeah I actually cut those clinics fast with your with your ice and everything else which is basically just a even more cyclical periodized version of what some of the top athletes already doing which was kind of cool call it bio stacking yeah one question I always like to ask as we wrap up here is that you had infinite resources infinite people to be guinea pigs what study would you run what do you think are some of the most interesting scientific questions in the human porn space that you'd love to answer or see cancers near and dear to me because I've lost a lot of family to cancer so I think you know if we had infinite resources and we really could really could look at just other forms of cancer like you know non-small-cell lung cancer because like a lot of the ketogenic research is surrounding brain and brain cancer anyway you know gee alas no there's no denying that 4G of lost omens like ketogenic diets the way to go yeah and I know that you know Don de Augustine is looking into a lot of that stuff and that's really awesome but I feel like you know it's still it's underfunded under-resourced you know and if they feel like you know that that's a world that I really want to see yeah you know and it's broad like I want to see other forms of cancer I want to see in adjunct to chemotherapy I want to see adjunct of radiation I want to seem realistic practical stuff at the ketogenic diet and we can't really do that until we break through this barrier where it's more widely accepted and that makes sense especially with with cancer I think like I think that's like that if there's a critique on the space it's like how do we can maintain the excitement without over hyping it and like how do we accelerate some of the research and data well and how do we not sound so bad but well how do we not take the hype out of out of the diet portion of it you know while you know talking to it because it can't hey when you start talking cancer you put a you put a little bit of a dark shadow on things like you can kind of do like you don't want people to think like you dosed the cancer diet right you know that's the last thing you want I mean I lost my dad to cancer and so it's very near it's like I'm like really wanna like I can't decide I hate it you know I want to find ways to do that and then it's a I even when I put content on my channel surrounding keto in cancer it it just it bombs like it just doesn't do well people don't I think it's people just don't unless they're there at that point think you have to be in a special place in your life to be open to hearing it let alone be like really wanting to hear it and so it's just now algorithmically that tells me that people aren't looking for it so we need more awareness there and we need more like the more garbage that comes out saying he does unhealthy the more people are just gonna never accept it as that and just dismiss it so it's frustrating but I definitely want to see you know something paved the way there yeah how do you see this space evolving in the next few years thanks five years I did a video on this specifically I said well well the keto diet crash you know like because it's been a common thing if I looked at my crystal ball I would say that you know keto is going to settle into more of a low carb it's going to settle into more of a targeted ketogenic because there's two reasons one it's just it's just too much for a lot of people to try to digest all this stuff actually three reasons really number two being I think the term keto in itself is just it sounds – it almost sounds like a diet you know it sounds and it sounds too aggressive at first yeah Kito like it's people like it's just like you're adopting it needs to be a way of life and just not anything with a name it just needs to change how we look and how we look at food and needs to change how we look at a label so that's one thing that's happening and it's changing how we look at a label is changing how we look at food it's changing how we look at sugar it's changing how we look at processed carbohydrates across the screen in general so it's doing its job we just need to make sure that we all stick together to a point where it's like it sticks around long enough for it to hit all the touch points that it needs to hit and a lot of people get upset with all these different food brands coming in making keto products and this and that oh you're coming in with all your erythritol and all this and that and like it's easy to get upset with a lot of these brands that are coming in and they're making essentially keto junk food right but I have a different view on that I feel like brands that are like if before Nabisco izing if I can make up a word in Quito and we're doing something right you know because it means that people are starting to see in a different way and I would rather have a bright fluorescent bag of almond flour erythritol cookies then I would Double Stuf Oreos any day you know let's put it that way so don't hate on the people that are doing that because they're actually the ones that are grabbing the other people you know from the Midwest and you know that are just like have some of these high junk food consumption like populations you know you know they're so it's helping us what we don't want is people over marketing that's what's getting hard is like if everyone comes out with a keto product everyone comes out with a keto food then I feel like that's going to take the take the buzz out of it but maybe I'm wrong maybe that's actually what we need yeah I mean it just reminds me like I don't think I was old enough to like really cognitively be aware of it but I remember like everything being low-fat yeah that one I guess when we're growing up it's like everything's like the hundred calorie low fat version of like the oreo hundred calorie packs like yeah wonder if that's going to be kind of the world that we moved towards like the low-carb I don't know like hi you know the healthy fat version of it yeah it totally could be yeah I mean it's better than what it is right now otherwise yeah so cool like how do our you know our folks follow you along in your journey what's in project or what what's in what's in process for you for the rest of the year in 2020 what are you most excited about yeah 2020 I mean I'm honestly just excited to just grow the channel as much as I can right now it's you know we talked before I've got multiple businesses as far as the Thomas sell our brand is concerned and spreading the word I mean it's just I'm doubling down on it you know it's it's growing 100,000 subscribers a month right now I just think we're reaching so many people and I foolish to pump the brakes at all on that now you know obviously I put the right stops in place to make sure I'm not always building on someone else's land building only on YouTube's land I'm not I'm not that you know but it's so that's just big for me for the rest of 2020 so I mean what I'm really excited about is just you know gold hitting 2 million subscribers by October you know and after that what happens so I mean I mean again like you know you're right one point six on points out right now more so this is not something a hundred I mean going and that's like Silicon Valley numbers right 10 percent month-over-month growth it's like well like the best startups you know grow at so you're essentially like uber in a human form so and the most YouTube wants to pull the carbon from underneath me and be like no we don't want to circuito content anymore we'll see what happens yeah I don't think that's gonna happen yeah I mean I don't know that can of worms were like yeah is there censorship in this space but we'll leave it for next time yeah thanks much Thomas thank tuning in this week everyone if you want to learn more about HP MN and our offerings visit www.hp.com/recycle we'll hook you up with $15 worth of hvm n store credit our last shout-out goes out to our listener survey which lets us know who you are better so we can continue making episodes you find most value visit go HBM n.com slash podcast survey for that survey it'll only take a few minutes and new submissions are eligible for an HB MN ketone giveaway until next time eat well train smart and live 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